Great...So Cisco is turning into the Nike of technology.
I can't wait to see 11 year olds building routers that sell for $1.5 million
USD, while getting paid 7 cents/hour.
[Thu, Sep 23, 2004 at 04:49:11PM -0700]
Nicole Inscribed these words...
In article <OF3A744E78.199AE265-ON80256F19.00492B97-80256F19.004A5EC4@radianz.com>, Michael.Dillon@radianz.com writes
If you really want to try and stop the wave, go ahead,
but I think you should do that work elsewhere.
I'm all in favour of enhancing the wave; but who is worst off, the American engineer who fears the day he can't afford the payments on his Hummer, or the chap driving the Bangalorian engineer for a dollar a day?
Outsourcing is a way of life. It is a result of free trade policy. It has
been happening for a long time in the other industries. There are very real
benefits to the outsourcing. It helps keep our cost of living down (I live
in California). On the other hand, it is very hard on the folks whose
livelihood it is affecting.
On the the other hand, there can be some concrete steps that can be taken to
alleviate the problem in US. More education and training would help the
displaced folks better adapt to the changing landscape. Did you know that
only 7% of native born Californians go to graduate school? Government
should invest in infrastructure or give tax incentives to companies
investing in infrastructure. Building infrastructure provides base on which
innovation flourishes.
There should be pressure built on foreign governments to play by the rules.
For instance, if a country were to have fixed currency instead of allowing
it float, then it is using unfair practices. Allowing currencies to float in
countries where the outsourced jobs are landing would increase their buying
power and the cost differential goes down very quickly.
This country (USA) has always been on the cutting edge of innovation for
generations. They have always managed to come up with the next level of
innovation to come out on tops. They have been doing it for years and there
is no reason to believe that it won't happen again. Don't listen to all the
doom and gloom being spewed.
Vinay Bannai
Then you all need to stop purchasing from Dell, IBM, HP, Cisco, et al.
Of course. Don't purchase from DELL, purchase from ServersDirect.
Don't purchase from HP, purchase (for home) from brand-less or E-Machine.
Don't purchase from EMC, purchase from Adap. Are any idiots here, who
purchase CA Unicenter? etc...
Btw, I do not deal with Bank Of America; I deal with Patelco CU. (But I deal
with Safeway and walMart -:)).
It's not about outsourcing, through, it's about _BIG, OLD, and FAT_ brands.
Cisco was the only one who keeps going as a startup for more than 5 - 7
years; but now (few years) they behave as a _BIG, FAT and OLD brand_ (not in
everything, they still have a lot of drive).
(Compare - AX100 from AMC and FS4500 from Adaptec. Compare server frm DELL
and server from SuperMicro... Comp[are RedHat linux and SuSe linux. The same
happen with Cisco; knowing their internal athmosphere, which changed
dramatically - I should not want to work for them, no I bet on their long
life).
This race exists because governments beholden to corporate interests,
permit it to exist. A US company that sacrifices the welfare of US
workers for the sake of its bottom line, or to curry favor with a
foreign government, is not one I care to do business with.
I usually lurk, not post. I just needed to say this.
Without getting into the entire conceptual argument about capitalism in general and why some semi-sane economic decisions are made… What is it that makes you think that boycotting a company (particularly one the size or deployment of Cisco and/or Juniper) would make someone say “oh, I’m sorry, it looks like we made a bad decision in saving some money”???
Now, let’s also go back and look at the original post. Cisco is putting in what? $32 million. in the grand scheme of things, just what kind of impact do you really believe this is going to have? Committing to training people in another country is not a commitment to abandon jobs elsewhere. Look at the economics of how much the Chinese market is growing. Or should we handle all of that extra work in supporting that country’s expanding market with jobs already here in the US (or wherever).
Oh wait, don’t many US folks already complain about the down-, right-, left-, some-direction-sizing that’s going on and how overworked they may be?
There are SOME areas where the outsourcing may hit a chord, and everyone is always welcome to their soapbox. I just don’t think it really applies to the particulars that were announced here, and certainly not to this level. As ANY good job-seeker should realize, it’s all about economics. So make yourself a more marketable or valuable person than others. Whether through certifications (not starting this war) or experiences or the ability to demonstrate business prowess along with technical skills…
But where do we draw the line? Almost ANY electronics company uses non-American parts. Many clothing manufacturers use off-shore assembly. Everyone is entitled to desire purchasing locally-produced goods only, but at the same time it’s hard to justify complaining about how much more expensive some of those items may be!
It’s everywhere… As long as there are options, it’ll never change. We see the shift now because of the ease of travel and shipping and ubiquitous communications (oh damn, that means were in an industry that may have helped this “evil” trend). It’s economic destiny, which means to fight it we need to make the overall economic choice one that leans our direction (whever that “our” may be). But simply complaining about it is the easy part. Figuring out the “why” and then working to make the decision better to go a different direction is harder. Business decisions, like routes, have metrics. Figure out what they are and change them if desired. but it’s not nearly as simple!
Scott
"Nicole" wrote:
Lovely, Just lovely. Just heard On CNN, Lou Dobbs. (but can't find it on
their site)
Well if Lou Dobbs said it on the air, then it must be true...
The current wave of outsourcing is driven by greed and greed alone.
What's going on now would make Gordon Gekko blush. There is nothing
stopping the companies from paying the workers in India or China the
prevailing wage in the developed countries which would really accelerate
growth in these countries and would have the side effect of making the
playing field level as in let the best engineer win rather than the
cheapest.
Right now outsourcers are moving jobs from India to Bangladesh and Africa
because wages and the standard of living in India is rising so the
Indians are seeing what we see here in the US.
What is often forgotten is that innovation in an industry comes from its
practitioners not a collective of marketing types and "systems
archetects". So by outsourcing we are sending the wellspring of
innovation and the attendant wealth creation elsewhere.
Scott C. McGrath
This race exists because of imbalances in prosperity in world.
This race exists because governments beholden to corporate interests,
permit it to exist.
No, with free trade, it exists because of imbalance.
Unless of course you are completely against free trade, and hence blame the government for not tariffing the problem out of existence - which of course means you end-up paying more for your clothes, food, oil, computers, etc. Which means growth in your economy slows down, your stocks dont do as well, etc...
A US company that sacrifices the welfare of US workers for the sake of its bottom line, or to curry favor with a foreign government, is not one I care to do business with.
See Suresh's post, what do you do for clothes?
BTW, I work for an American technology company. I'm probably doing a job that would otherwise be done by an American (or, at least, a US resident, good few of my colleagues in the US are not of american origin), and I'm probably doing it for a lower salary than an american would - and that's despite fact that cost of living in my country is at least comparable to that in the USA (if possibly even slightly higher).
But think to yourself, what happens to the profits made by american multinational, US parented, companies?
regards,
Nicole wrote:
So.. I guess we will be cranking out those H1b's...Plan to kiss your
raises
and or jobs bye bye to some specialized cheap imported Cisco trained
networking person from China.There is an implicit assumption here that the objective of 100% of these
trainees will be to move as economic migrants to "the West". Wrong folks.
Very very wrong. Notice how China as a *consumer* is growing faster than
anyone else around ? While there may well be some (what's the right word ?)
"retro-sourcing" of cheap labour into the US (and the EU), I suspect that
once any initial levelling of the field happens, there will be just as much,
if not more, movement the other way.
China is a communist and closed loop society. Thats teh real problem. The
company that claims it "runs the internet" (or some such phrase) is now saying
we prefer communist China than America and American Jobs. China is very very
good and writing into their contacts that most all training and workers are
Chineese. No one can reasonably assume that any number larger than you have
fingers and toes will be imported to work on Cisco gear. Let alone any other
networking. What company woudl not want to hire someone who puts on his resume
"helped configure and work on the largest new networking buildout since 1993."
Or "trained in Cisco training center".
Now yes, some of that money will eeek its way back into the hands of the
American companies. But with their seting themselves up offshore to avoid taxes
and re-investing into China etc and feeding their economy. After they pay their
million dollar salary's how much do you think trickles back down to us?
Btw the best definition I ever heard of trickle down economy was from Bill
Maher who said its like a eufamism for being peed on from above. of Gosh we
have so much money to hold.. some may fall through as we try to hang onto it
all.. so you can have that. Much like scraps for the pet dog.
Yes it may hit China eventually like it did with Japan that our futures are
linked. But China is playing things close to the chest. They really don't need
to import much so they are not so linked to us during their growth.
They don't really buy much from us. What they Have to buy they seem to be
counterfitting or getting cheaply or just plain ol stealing as far as
technology goes.
There is a lot of jingoistic rhetoric here, and not enough rational thought
about the objective - building big networks in the biggest economy of the
near future.
Yes, but it will be done by the chineese. You won't see more than a handfull
of people their. Probobly mostly the execs smiling about their payoff and
planned happy retirement.
PS I hate *all* certification with a passion, regardless of level and
including things like my BSc which was just a great excuse to drink lots for
a few years. The person doing the selection of candidates should have enough
expertise themselves to make a rational judgement based on a face to face
interview.
If Cisco was sex there would be 90% fewer babies! You need a manual even for
something basic and you can't do much more without loads of training. It's what
assured and kept most networking people fat and happy. It's not some windows
based thing that can be additionally assigned to bob in accounting when he's
not busy. But when a company can find a way to cut costs. They will! Becouse we
as Americans are lazy and complacent and most don't even know what's going on in
the world.
The most amazing thing to me is the concept that someone actually had a house,
a car, was married with kids and supported them well by owning a hat store!
Nicole
Thus spake "Nicole" <nmh@daemontech.com>
Nicole wrote:
So.. I guess we will be cranking out those H1b's...Plan to kiss your
raises
and or jobs bye bye to some specialized cheap imported Cisco trained
networking person from China.There is an implicit assumption here that the objective of 100% of these
trainees will be to move as economic migrants to "the West". Wrong folks.
Very very wrong. Notice how China as a *consumer* is growing faster than
anyone else around ? While there may well be some (what's the right word ?)
"retro-sourcing" of cheap labour into the US (and the EU), I suspect that
once any initial levelling of the field happens, there will be just as much,
if not more, movement the other way.China is a communist and closed loop society. Thats teh real problem. The
company that claims it "runs the internet" (or some such phrase) is now saying
we prefer communist China than America and American Jobs.
Cisco investing 0.1% of their revenue into China is hardly a preference for that country over America. They spend more than that buying (er, contributing to campaigns for) politicians in the US.
This bashing of overseas workers always comes down to Americans not willing to accept that demanding obscene salaries will lose them jobs when there are people elsewhere willing to work for four figures (or even three); welcome to Supply and Demand 101. Also, having worked there at the time, Cisco started moving "sustaining" work on IOS to India because American coders simply refused to work on bug-fixing projects and demanded assignments working on new features. If the cost of hiring Americans is hundreds of times more, why would any sane company insist on hiring more Americans -- if they can even find any to do the work?
The problem with China and several other countries in that region is the fact the people are effectively slave laborers -- assigned to jobs by (in effect) a military dictatorship and jailed or executed if they complain about the work or wages. We would be rightfully outraged if this were happening in the US, and IMHO this is the _only_ legitimate reason to complain about Cisco's investment in that particular country.
Cisco's also in a rough position. Investors and analysts expect Cisco to maintain 70% margins overall, and customers want lower prices and more aggressive discounts or they'll go to competitors. The only way Cisco can make both sides happy is to find cheaper labor, hence India, Mexico, and China. Before you complain about this, take a close look at your 401k and see how much money you have invested in Cisco -- you're probably part of the problem, if only indirectly.
China is very very good and writing into their contacts that most all training
and workers are Chineese. No one can reasonably assume that any
number larger than you have fingers and toes will be imported to work on
Cisco gear. Let alone any other networking.
That's standard practice in int'l business. Many European countries require that on-site techs, engineers, etc. be citizens of that country. The US Govt even does the same on many contracts, requiring foreign companies hire a certain percentage of US citizens to work on the project.
What company woudl not want to hire someone who puts on his resume
"helped configure and work on the largest new networking buildout since 1993."
Or "trained in Cisco training center".
When I'm hiring folks, all I care about is whether they're competent at the particular job I have a req for. Typically that requires skills far above anything offerred in a Cisco training class; CCNAs in particular are a pain to hire since so much of the training is outdated or downright wrong.
S
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
This race exists, because American employees keeps many unnecessary
expenses, making local workforce
very expensive. In reality, even if people in India or Russia will have the
same life level as in USA, they will cost 2 - 3 times less.
There are many core reasons, driving work costs up and workforce offshore.
(1) Number 1 - LIABILITY and LAWERS. It became anecdote for the all world
around. Some girl in NY failed near the train - and company pay her $24M
dollars for _future lost_. My friends closed boat rental because of
liability costs are too high. Palo Alto Hospital pay to the mother many
millions because _she believe they did not do their best..._. Who pay it
all - Hospitals, transport companies, rentals? Not, it is paid by customers,
consumers (I do not want to revert liability to the doctor, but I am forced
to pay for others who can claim liability). lawyers are doing nothing, they
just pull money from others and drive costs high - and it drives workforce
offshore.
(2) Number 2 - landlords and real estate costs. Who pay for the homes
($500,000 here and $1,000,000 in Santa Barbara) - homeowners? Not,
employers -> consumers. I can live in Moscow paying $300 / month for the
apartment, I can not live here paying less than $1,000 for apartment. Who
pay it? Employers, at the end.
This is main driving engine. No one want to outsource (with exceptions, of
course - if you are from country A, you will likely outsource engineering to
country A) - it is much more convenient to have a local workforce vs.
remote. But if call center agent pays to the lawyers, pays for liabilities,
pays $2K/month for the rent here - and the same agent in India pay $200 ,
no liabilities (because smart people are responsible for themselves, because
_coffee is hot, and train is dangerous_), no huge lawyers costs, no huge
payments to licensed doctors (while many unlicensed can not get a job, and
many do not take this career because of huge liabilities) - employer have
not other chance than outsourcing. Smart employers keeps core team local and
outsource utilities, technical jobs, mass programming etc; other outsource
everything and then die, but no one have a chance to survive, paying this
liabilities, rentals and so on, when competitors are not doing it.
Nicole wrote:
China is a communist and closed loop society. Thats teh real problem. The
company that claims it "runs the internet" (or some such phrase) is now saying
we prefer communist China than America and American Jobs.
Who are you to say communism's bad if you've never even tried it?
Btw the best definition I ever heard of trickle down economy was from Bill
Maher who said its like a eufamism for being peed on from above. of Gosh we
have so much money to hold.. some may fall through as we try to hang onto it
all.. so you can have that. Much like scraps for the pet dog.
That's "euphemism". And to you believe everything the liberal news
media says? As I recall, this whole thread (which, I might add, is
not in the least bit operational, nor relevent) was started in
response to a sound bite you heard on TV, whcih you were unable to
even provide a proper reference for.
They don't really buy much from us. What they Have to buy they seem to be
counterfitting or getting cheaply or just plain ol stealing as far as
technology goes.
"Have" should be lower-case.
Yes, but it will be done by the chineese. You won't see more than a handfull
"Chinese" and "handful," you mean?
of people their. Probobly mostly the execs smiling about their payoff and
"there" is the word you're looking for, not "their"
not busy. But when a company can find a way to cut costs. They will! Becouse we
as Americans are lazy and complacent and most don't even know what's going on in
the world.
Sounds like Cisco's doing something smart. Maybe it's time to quit
crying and purchase some shares in CSCO.
Hey, Mr. Spelling Bee, it is *their*, not there. So, you can't make an
argument that is valid and focus on the spelling?
This thread has gotten a bit long in the tooth, so I'm waiting for
Godwin's law to take effect.
Ricardo,
If I were you, I'd atleast pipe my shit through aspell a couple hundred times, before I even consider hitting 'y'.
That's "euphemism". And to you believe everything the liberal news
media says? As I recall, this whole thread (which, I might add, is
You mean "And do you...", right?
not in the least bit operational, nor relevent) was started in
relevant
response to a sound bite you heard on TV, whcih you were unable to
which
~Hani Mustafa
P.S As a random exercise, compose a sentence from the following scrambled words: house, stones, glass, throw
Isn't this just business, there is a huge untapped VOIP and mobile market in
China and Cisco is a vendor that sells these products. As a shareholder I
would be disappointed if they didn't want a share of this.
Paul Gilbert
Router Management Solutions, Inc.
www.routermanagement.com
work: 5167666068
mobile: 5164564983
Sorry - I tried it; I can said that it is BAD.
The only event that is driving this, is Cisco wants to
dominate the Chinese market and the only way to sell
in China is to manufacture product there, using their
people to manufacture, that is how the game is played
there and for the chinese it makes sense, considering
the government there has has around 1.3 billion people
to care for.
The lack of understanding here is that Americans need
to be cared for to, with economy that providers us
with a sense of financial security.
The problem centers around jobs now being promoted for
poltical purposes as jobs, when you focus on these
jobs, you will discover they are not living wage jobs
and certainly not jobs that provide for intelligent
people staffing them.
The other issue that fits into this problem, is the
Bush administration gets $1.12 for every dollar earned
offshore from any product, so it basically doesn't
care, since it keeps the US government solvent, while
the rest of us get flushed down the tubes. Making
matter's worse is the fact, that executives that
support the Bush administration with outsourcing
offshore, are financial rewards and tax incentrives
that make it attractive to do so.
If you don't like the politics of what is happening to
you change it in November and work to turn our country
around and preserve our friendships globally in the
process. My 2 cents
-henry
Had you written above with s/\(Hey, Mr. Spelling\) Bee/\1 Nazi/ it would have done, missed opportunity, but not anymore 
regards,
> > of people their. Probobly mostly the execs smiling about their
> > payoff and
>
> "there" is the word you're looking for, not "their"Hey, Mr. Spelling Bee, it is *their*, not there. So, you
can't make an argument that is valid and focus on the spelling?This thread has gotten a bit long in the tooth, so I'm
waiting for Godwin's law to take effect.
Yes, quite a bit OT for this list... Other lists and forums
around...
Thanks,
mh