i've been reading nanog-l/inet-access for many many years (just a shadow,
i don't post).
i am just curious... do you have any authority/commission from arin (or
anyone else)? or is yours a rogue vigilante mission? does anyone ask you
to undertake the battles you feel justified in engaging in?
this is certainly not flame bait, but it is an honest question. you're
very self-righteous, and although you may have valid points (i withold
judgement) i really want to know what gives you the right/authority to say
the things you say about others.
i've been reading nanog-l/inet-access for many many years (just a shadow,
i don't post).
i am just curious... do you have any authority/commission from arin (or
anyone else)? or is yours a rogue vigilante mission? does anyone ask you
to undertake the battles you feel justified in engaging in?
this is certainly not flame bait, but it is an honest question. you're
very self-righteous, and although you may have valid points (i withold
judgement) i really want to know what gives you the right/authority to say
the things you say about others.
In the north-american country I happen to live in, you do not need
'authority' to express your opinions. If your country is different, I offer
my condolences.
bash.org... bash.org... now where have I seen that... AAH YES! So then a
group dedicated solely to efforts at documenting trolling on IRC should be
given credibility as to what is/isn't said on NANOG? Yes there are
members of ICANN, ARIN, and most "tier-1" peers on here. You might even
see bash.org stick it's neck out and get it chopped off from time to time.
And now back to things that are less fattening on my killfile.
i've been reading nanog-l/inet-access for many many years (just a shadow,
i don't post).
i am just curious... do you have any authority/commission from arin (or
anyone else)? or is yours a rogue vigilante mission? does anyone ask you
to undertake the battles you feel justified in engaging in?
this is certainly not flame bait, but it is an honest question. you're
very self-righteous, and although you may have valid points (i withold
judgement) i really want to know what gives you the right/authority to say
the things you say about others.
/blaxthos
We may not have authority but we do have enable/root.
Some roots are bigger than others.
SO get your own and then come complain.
Bye Troll.
I think that most people with clue will realize that every time he
mentions or posts something thats about 50-90% innacurate, he damages his
own credibility anyways.
A lot of the stuff I've seen in regard to this issue is almost comical,
and I wonder who picked on him so badly that he decided to lash out this
way.
Frankly, I think his vitriol would be better directed at those who
defraud their upstream ISPs, as that hurts the community more than
some hijacked unused IP space.
I think my point is being missed, however (and hopefully this reply will
help legitimize the situation).
It should be noted that the original post was directed to W@E, not to
nanog-l (the list was only cc'd).
I take issue with anyone who publically accuses another entity of
wrongdoing beyond his scope of authority.
If people are speeding in my neighborhood, I can not go and take down
their pictures, personal information, license plate numbers, etc., post
them publically, and accuse them of breaking the law (even if they did!).
That's liabel, and it is illegal (and wrong). It is no less wrong just
because it is up to the victim of the post to take corrective/punative
action in a civil forum (ie lawsuit).
The correct action would be to lobby the authorities (police in the
example, arin in this situation) to take enforcement measures, NOT to
demand that the "criminals" justify their actions to you (specifically
speaking to whom my email was originally addressed). There are fiscal and
legal ramifications to what is being done here.
i've been reading nanog-l/inet-access for many many years (just a shadow,
i don't post).
Hello shadow of anonymous nanog & inet-access subscriber...
I do first have to wonder if you have read newspapers or seen tv shows
like 60 minutes recently?
As for the authorities you can be sure that "questinable" blocks were
reported to ARIN and the data helped them a lot in their investigations.
And its interesting that in 99% of those reports have resulted in either
block being deleted or marked invalid or change of contacts & address of
the block to point to correct entity. The least dangerous cases were dealt
with without involvement of authorities which I suspect was in best
interest of both authorities (saved their resources) and the actual
people involved. And the most dangerous activity went to real authorities
one case is in criminal court right now.
Besides that as I point to everybody, I post public data collected together
(eventhough sometimes I have whole bunch more private info, for example
I've seen actual bill of sale for several ip blocks) and make sure that
everybody understand they should primarily make their own opinion based
on this public data. Answering the last message I've seen on the thread
so far, if you think something is not accurate, would you mind letting me
know privately or posting about it. If you like I can open public message
board allowing to comment on each case (although I think this will result
in slander by yet more people posting anonymously) or you can post to
approriate mail list (i.e. hijacked). I'm not saying there are no inaccuraces,
but its probably in the single percentage points considering that public
data is what is being used whenever possible for public website.
P.S. Note to other - this thread may have happened because of recent
thread on layer42 on inet-access mail list. While I generally answer
accusations, I'm not the one who starts such threads and do not think its
approriate for nanog mail list, so this will be my only message here.
I think you've made plenty of accusations without basis, so to quote
Richard Cox "Then you would appear to have a circular argument to contend
with."
Don't go around accusing people of malfeasance if you're not prepared to
be confronted with your own wrongdoing (IE your own hijacked blocks), or
to face the criticism of others when you're wrong.
I generally try to stay out of these types of arguements, but I think that
you should probably focus your efforts on something more productive than
defaming other ISPs.
If people are speeding in my neighborhood, I can not go and take down
their pictures, personal information, license plate numbers, etc., post
them publically, and accuse them of breaking the law (even if they did!).
Yes you can.
That's liabel,
It is not libel, that they were speeding is a true statement.
Truth is an absolute defense against a charge of libel.
and it is illegal (and wrong).
And what law does it violate?
as previous respondent said
"In the north-american country I happen to live in, you do not need
'authority' to express your opinions."
I suspect I live in the same country, and here you need even less (i.e. zero) 'authority' to express that which is true.
I answered questions posed here on related inet-access mail list thread
and there is also info there on my previous post why the accusations had
had basis for it. Those who are interested may read it there or in archives
and Susan will I'm sure welcome me not taking any more of nanog resource
on this. Again if somebody has ->particular<- data to indicate that website
is not accurate, please feel free to contact me in private or on appropriate
mail list, otherwise lets stop from continuing on nanog as it only invites
more trolling.
May I add that a lot of NANOG people actually use IRC for many reasons.
You would be suprised to learn how many of the people posting to NANOG
chat on a daily basis in a certain #nanog channel. Would you be pissed to
know that I'm an IRCer and I also own NANOG.NET ?
ohh and also, #nanog has members of "tier-1" peers on there. He's just
asking a simple question and I think it would be interesting to know his
answer.
If our countries (I'm canadian) are so free, I should and we should all be
allowed to say whatever we want, whenever we want which includes that
blaxthos guy.
the nanog-l is not WILLIAM LEIBZON's personnal hatered list. If he wants
people to read on his stuff, he can just start his own list.
Actually, he has his own mailing list, and it is closed to the public.
You can read it at http://archive.humbug.org.au/hijacked/ though this is
an unauthorized archive that some dissenting list member populates. They
even have little internal witch-hunts to try to find out which of their
list members are responsible for information leaks. It's quite novel!
the nanog-l is not WILLIAM LEIBZON's personnal hatered list. If he
wants people to read on his stuff, he can just start his own list.
Actually, he has his own mailing list, and it is closed to the public.
You can read it at http://archive.humbug.org.au/hijacked/ though this
is an unauthorized archive that some dissenting list member populates.
The "Hijacked" list is certainly not William's private list, although he
is a welcome contributor there. I am but the humble keeper of that list
and with the rest of the participants we try to share information about
IP/ASN misuse so that (parts of) the 'net can run more smoothly.
Anyone can join and (within reason) contribute unless they appear to be
involved with the routing of IP blocks of dubious provenance. (And yes,
I admit it, I'm behind with the new joiners queue. Apologies for that!)
The archive site is expected to be relocating on or about 12/31/2003