I don't have any first hand knowledge of the info below, but I was asked
for forward this to the list.
This appears to be at least somewhat valid information.
Upon a quick check, it looks like all or almost all of
NetRail's long haul stuff is dark. Their EP routers are
still live, and still accepting traffic... but they're
a very big bit bucket at the moment.
Is this indicative of things to come with the rest of
the fairly recent startups? This could get interesting...
-brian
I just read this after clearing out old NANOG mail...
Jon Lewis <jlewis@inorganic5.fdt.net> writes:
The Atlanta NAP (www.atlanta-nap.net run by Nathan Stratton) is down,
probably for good. We're a customer (luckily a multihomed one!), and
the word is WORLDCOM pulled all their circuits due to debts. So all the
netrail.net mailing lists and stuff will be down too.
8 mae-east2-nap.Washington.mci.net (204.70.1.222) 107.596 ms 195.051 ms 90.187 ms
9 mae-east.netrail.net (192.41.177.228) 97.759 ms 128.468 ms 108.682 ms
10 mae-east.netrail.net (192.41.177.228) 121.353 ms !H 92.724 ms !H 92.384 ms !H
23 144.228.10.42 (144.228.10.42) 178.501 ms 181.052 ms *
24 mae-east.netrail.net (192.41.177.228) 204.067 ms 206.366 ms *
25 mae-east.netrail.net (192.41.177.228) 208.59 ms !H 197.928 ms !H 207.262 ms !H
You know, although I do feel bad for Netrail and its
customers, I did read this with a keen appreciation for
the irony, given Mr Stratton's public comments about how
badly BBN's power system was misdesigned for allowing them
to take multi-hour outages, particularly in light of the
fact that the outage in question was beyond BBN's
immediate ability to fix, and not BBN's fault.
It didn't have the personal tastiness of Mr Bass's
unfortunate encounter with bad weather a year or so ago,
but frankly, I can't help but engage in schadenfreude
anyway.
I also wonder how the millions of GRFs and the billions of other
high-tech expensive pieces of equipment in Netrail's large
network Mr Stratton often commented upon are coping right
now.
One final extract, from <Pine.BSF.3.95q.970716143738.3017A-100000@netrail.net>
posted to NANOG during the recent backhoe season: "Ya, we
are going to kill worldcom for this [outage caused by a
fibre-cut]". No tickee, no complainee?
The moral of this story: bad things happen to everyone.
But when it happens to braggarts who seem to specialize in
doing things better than people who are trying their best,
it's terribly, terribly cool. --
Take note, please, Mr Fleming (inventor and super genius).
Sean.
I just read this after clearing out old NANOG mail...
Jon Lewis <jlewis@inorganic5.fdt.net> writes:
> The Atlanta NAP (www.atlanta-nap.net run by Nathan Stratton) is down,
> probably for good. We're a customer (luckily a multihomed one!), and
> the word is WORLDCOM pulled all their circuits due to debts. So all the
> netrail.net mailing lists and stuff will be down too.
Vary much not correct. All of our WORLDCOM circuits have been paid, and
never were late. Worldcom terminated our service because NetRail refused
to pay over 300K in circuits that NetRail never ordered. We have paid
them this amount to get our network back up.
You know, although I do feel bad for Netrail and its
customers, I did read this with a keen appreciation for
the irony, given Mr Stratton's public comments about how
badly BBN's power system was misdesigned for allowing them
to take multi-hour outages, particularly in light of the
fact that the outage in question was beyond BBN's
immediate ability to fix, and not BBN's fault.
Ok, how much larger is BBN compared to NetRail??? NetRail was started by
one guy with a credit card. I have built NetRail, not just a transit free
network, but I have built the colos, and even some hardware. I have done
all this with VARY little money. I now have funding, and you WILL see is
grow. I admit NetRail should have paid the disputed 300K worldcom bill.
My investors refused to pay it. I not have new investors with far more
money.
It didn't have the personal tastiness of Mr Bass's
unfortunate encounter with bad weather a year or so ago,
but frankly, I can't help but engage in schadenfreude
anyway.I also wonder how the millions of GRFs and the billions of other
high-tech expensive pieces of equipment in Netrail's large
network Mr Stratton often commented upon are coping right
now.
They are up and running fine.
One final extract, from <Pine.BSF.3.95q.970716143738.3017A-100000@netrail.net>
posted to NANOG during the recent backhoe season: "Ya, we
are going to kill worldcom for this [outage caused by a
fibre-cut]". No tickee, no complainee?The moral of this story: bad things happen to everyone.
But when it happens to braggarts who seem to specialize in
doing things better than people who are trying their best,
it's terribly, terribly cool. --
Well Sean, you can sit back and soon eat your words. NetRail will grow,
and so far we lost only 1 customer due to this outage. Why, because we
provide a services that is better then most providers out there.
Take note, please, Mr Fleming (inventor and super genius).
Sean.
P.S. We have also learned not be be dependent on Worldcom. We will soon
buy our DS3s from 3 fibers carriers, and not just 1.
Nathan Stratton President, CTO, NetRail,Inc.
Nathan, you write...
Vary much not correct. All of our WORLDCOM circuits have been paid, and
never were late. Worldcom terminated our service because NetRail refused
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
to pay over 300K in circuits that NetRail never ordered. We have paid
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
...
I admit NetRail should have paid the disputed 300K worldcom bill.
...
P.S. We have also learned not be be dependent on Worldcom. We will soon
buy our DS3s from 3 fibers carriers, and not just 1.
So when you just admitted you SHOULD HAVE PAID the bill,
but didn't want to, and you didn't order the circuits, do
you really expect three fiber carriers to drop their drawers
to get their business?
I hate to tell you, but if you think stiffing Worldcom 300K
you owed them and then trying to blame THEM for it is legitimate
business practices, you need to buy a bigger clue.
E
Nathan Stratton President, CTO, NetRail,Inc.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phone (888)NetRail NetRail, Inc.
Fax (404)522-1939 230 Peachtree Suite 500
WWW http://www.netrail.net/ Atlanta, GA 30303
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"No king is saved by the size of his army; no warrior escapes by his
great strength. - Psalm 33:16
"No bible-toting fool who won't pay his bills will be
in business long." - Ehud (look it up, it's in the same book.)
This is not a NANOG topic, but I felt I should respond, feal free to hit D
now.
So when you just admitted you SHOULD HAVE PAID the bill,
but didn't want to, and you didn't order the circuits, do
you really expect three fiber carriers to drop their drawers
to get their business?
I said I should have paid the bill because our customers should be the top
priority. You then can deal with them in later. I actually did not think
they would shut it off because it was disputed. If you check with the
records the thing I signed with worldcom said I was paying the bills to
get my network up, not because I owed the money.
I hate to tell you, but if you think stiffing Worldcom 300K
you owed them and then trying to blame THEM for it is legitimate
business practices, you need to buy a bigger clue.
I don't think so.
"No bible-toting fool who won't pay his bills will be
in business long." - Ehud (look it up, it's in the same book.)
I have been in business for 3 years and God has blessed me a lot, but this
is not a nanog topic so I will not go into that.
Nathan Stratton President, CTO, NetRail,Inc.
Actually, I didn't write that...I just forwarded it to the list for
someone else. The closest FDT ever got to being a Netrail customer was my
emailing Nathan and getting some quotes for a frame connection. That's
about the extent of my contact with Netrail.
The actual author of the above was Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@pobox.com>.
I'll ignore Nathan's defense because IMHO it has no place
on this list, and get straight to the operational issues.
P.S. We have also learned not be be dependent on Worldcom. We will soon
buy our DS3s from 3 fibers carriers, and not just 1.
I'd assume that everybody is currently either already doing
this or planning to do it RSN. How can one tell, however,
whether their carrier is using their own fiber or leasing
Worldcom's? Or even if Worldcom has been leasing /theirs/,
thus putting you right back on the same physical line?
I know this is a pretty common topic of discussion among
the smaller telcos, but AFAIK there's no easy solution.
> P.S. We have also learned not be be dependent on Worldcom. We will soon
> buy our DS3s from 3 fibers carriers, and not just 1.I'd assume that everybody is currently either already doing
this or planning to do it RSN. How can one tell, however,
whether their carrier is using their own fiber or leasing
Worldcom's? Or even if Worldcom has been leasing /theirs/,
thus putting you right back on the same physical line?
You get the DLRs (Design Layout Records) and fiber maps from your fiber
carriers. You then check them all out to make sure they are on diverse
fiber. You also want to check the DLRs every few months to make sure they
have not been changed.
I know this is a pretty common topic of discussion among
the smaller telcos, but AFAIK there's no easy solution.
No, not a easy solution, but it can be done.
Nathan Stratton President, CTO, NetRail,Inc.
On Tuesday, the 26th of August, J.D. was saying:
I'll ignore Nathan's defense because IMHO it has no place
on this list, and get straight to the operational issues.I'd assume that everybody is currently either already doing
his or planning to do it RSN. How can one tell, however,
whether their carrier is using their own fiber or leasing
Worldcom's? Or even if Worldcom has been leasing /theirs/,
thus putting you right back on the same physical line?
Or putting their fiber right next to Worldcom's on the same
physical route...
My $0.02...
I'd assume that everybody is currently either already doing
this or planning to do it RSN. How can one tell, however,
whether their carrier is using their own fiber or leasing
Worldcom's? Or even if Worldcom has been leasing /theirs/,
thus putting you right back on the same physical line?
It's one of the questions we ask prior to purchasing service. Just has
MFS install a new ring and put in physically seperate paths to one of our
facilities for just that reason. We made sure the paths were physically
seperate when they did the install. We waited for them to bring fiber up
the corridor prior to ordering service from them. Personally, I'd make
sure it was in the contract that service was being provided on physically
seperate media than the original carrier for a subsequent carrier, with
redundant paths, etc. If it's a new business, I'd make carrier facilties
part of the site survey. SONNET from multiple wirelines is good until
you forget something like multiple paths to the facility, then Joe
Backhoe Operator (JBO) will pick that single point of failure every darned
time.
> I know this is a pretty common topic of discussion among
the smaller telcos, but AFAIK there's no easy solution.
Contracts and lawgeeks.
Paul
Now here is a question, what is WorldComm's Standard Operating Procedure
(SOP) for building facilities of OC-48 or larger. Since obviously they
plan to distribute from plants like that, do they dual paths or something
more elaborate [i.e. multiple collapsed rings, etc].
-Deepak.
NANOG rating: useful content nil (flame, style tip,
no latin, likely will provoke angry
response and private email alleging
hypocrisy and a gentle note from Uncle Bill the AUP enforcer)
Nathan Stratton <nathan@netrail.net> writes:
Ok, how much larger is BBN compared to NetRail???
The point, I believe, is that despite BBN being much
bigger than NetRail, I do not see its executives or staff
going on and on and on about how wonderful it is and how
awful everyone else is in comparison.
Moreover, despite the fact that there are some enormously
talented people at BBN -- some of them are as startlingly
young as you, Nathan -- I have never seen any of them try
so hard as you to impress others, or to be seen as the
only competent engineer anywhere.
There is no doubt that you run a network of some size and
are obviously pretty bright, but I think that if you
managed to tone down a bit -- and I say this as one of the
bigger loud-mouthed assholes on this list -- people might
respect your accomplishments a bit more for what they are,
rather than what you often merely seem to claim them to be.
In particular, I would suggest that you recognize that the
people you've mocked in the past are neither stupid nor
inhuman. Maybe you can learn what it feels like to be
berated in public for things beyond your control when you
really are doing your best, and as a result do that a
little less frequently.
Well Sean, you can sit back and soon eat your words.
My words are often very tasty, and never in need of
additional salt or spice, so if, indeed, you change and
become someone pleasant to deal with in technical arenas
and someone I'd consider useful, I would sooner eat my
comments than Metcalfe's. (His writing style is very bland,
punctuated by things like his "gigaoutage" neologisms,
which distract from the blandness much in the manner as
finding a large piece of kielbasa in one's bowl of lentil soup).
and so far we lost only 1 customer due to this outage. Why, because we
provide a services that is better then most providers out there.
Oh, well, on the other hand, if you're determined to stick
to your guns, I get a chuckle out of thinking how cool it
would be to be so incredibly good at what I do that even
major fuckups wouldn't matter to customers.
P.S. We have also learned not be be dependent on Worldcom. We will soon
buy our DS3s from 3 fibers carriers, and not just 1.
Precisely! Exactly why nobody has only one credit card.
Sean.