Ars Technica on IPv4 exhaustion

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21

However, I also don't think consumer education is the answer:
http://www.wleecoyote.com/blog/consumeraction.htm
Summary: Until it is perfectly clear why a consumer needs IPv6, and what
they need to do about it, consumer education will only cause fear and
frustration, which will not be helpful. This is a technology problem, not
a feature problem, and consumers shouldn't have to select which Internet
to be on.

Lee

Short of consumer education, how do you expect to resolve the issue where $CONSUMER walks into $BIG_BOX_CE_STORE and says "I need a router, what's the cheapest one you have?"

Whereupon $TEENAGER_MAKING_MINIMUM_WAGE who likely doesn't know DOCSIS 2 from DOCSIS 3, has no idea what IP actually is, and thinks that Data is an android from Star Trek says "Here, this Linksys thing is only $30."

Unless/until we either get the stores to pull the IPv4-only stuff off their shelves or educate consumers, the continued deployment of additional incapable equipment will be a continuing problem. As bad as the situation is for cablemodems and residential gateways, at least there, an educated consumer can make a good choice. Now, consider DVRs, BluRay players, Receiver/Amplifiers, Televisions, etc. where there are, currently, no IPv6 capable choices available to the best of my knowledge.

Owen

22

Not to mix this up but one of the main reasons I attended ICANN
meetings over several years was an interest in the IPv4/IPv6
transition.

To say interest was sparse is an under, er, over statement.

There was a good session on legacy IPs, a topic more than marginally
related, in Toronto in fall 2012, a few people here were there.

Really, I can list them like that.

I'd sit in on the "ISP" sessions, for years, but when they weren't
talking about how to fill out travel reimbursement reports (Brussels)
they were mostly talking about site takedowns for intellectual
property violations and similar, very similar, trademark issues and
domains, etc.

In a nutshell the whole TLD thing and other registry/registrar and
closely related business issues so dominated discussions it drowned
everything else out about 99%.

If I'd bring it up, shouldn't we be discussing what we can do as an
organization about IPv4/IPv6?, I'd usually get a 1,000 mile stare like
who let this guy in? I remember once being cut off with "oh, CGN will
solve that (Sydney)."

I realize RIRs are more directly involved in many ways but this should
be, in my opinion, a high-priority global internet governance policy
issue with RIRs implementing or enjoying the results, not driving the
issue, or only as much as they can.

Then again vis a vis ICANN you can say this about almost any issue not
directly related to registry/registrar business matters.

TL;DR: I think there's an exposure and public awareness problem, even
with those who are chartered with being interested.

23

My Apple TV appears to use IPv6, but since there's no UI for it (last I checked) I had to disable SLAAC on that subnet to keep it from trying to use my slow connection.

So in my book, "some" v6 support is actually worse than "none"

Matthew Kaufman

24

However, I also don't think consumer education is the answer:
http://www.wleecoyote.com/blog/consumeraction.htm Summary: Until it
is perfectly clear why a consumer needs IPv6, and what they need to
do about it, consumer education will only cause fear and
frustration, which will not be helpful. This is a technology
problem, not a feature problem, and consumers shouldn't have to
select which Internet to be on.

Lee

Short of consumer education, how do you expect to resolve the issue
where $CONSUMER walks into $BIG_BOX_CE_STORE and says "I need a
router, what's the cheapest one you have?"

The $39.95 dlink on the endcap at frys and the $140 one with 802.11ac
beam forming atennas and gig-e run the same v6 stack...

Whereupon $TEENAGER_MAKING_MINIMUM_WAGE who likely doesn't know
DOCSIS 2 from DOCSIS 3, has no idea what IP actually is, and thinks
that Data is an android from Star Trek says "Here, this Linksys thing
is only $30."

the software stack isn't the source of price discrimination.

Unless/until we either get the stores to pull the IPv4-only stuff off
their shelves or educate consumers, the continued deployment of
additional incapable equipment will be a continuing problem. As bad
as the situation is for cablemodems and residential gateways, at
least there, an educated consumer can make a good choice. Now,
consider DVRs, BluRay players, Receiver/Amplifiers, Televisions, etc.
where there are, currently, no IPv6 capable choices available to the
best of my knowledge.

this stuff ages out of the network or doesn't require ipv4 for the
entirety of it's useful service life.

turns out for example that smart-tv's generally aren't (smart).

Your appletv does support v6 as do many of those android sticks even if
they're sufficiently inexpensive enough to be disposable.

25

In message <E6F570A1-3911-437F-897F-81CB569377C1@delong.com>, Owen DeLong write
s:

>=20
> However, I also don't think consumer education is the answer:
> http://www.wleecoyote.com/blog/consumeraction.htm
> Summary: Until it is perfectly clear why a consumer needs IPv6, and =
what
> they need to do about it, consumer education will only cause fear and
> frustration, which will not be helpful. This is a technology problem, =
not
> a feature problem, and consumers shouldn't have to select which =
Internet
> to be on.
>=20
> Lee
>=20

Short of consumer education, how do you expect to resolve the issue =
where $CONSUMER walks into $BIG_BOX_CE_STORE and says "I need a router, =
what's the cheapest one you have?"

Whereupon $TEENAGER_MAKING_MINIMUM_WAGE who likely doesn't know DOCSIS 2 =
from DOCSIS 3, has no idea what IP actually is, and thinks that Data is =
an android from Star Trek says "Here, this Linksys thing is only $30."

Unless/until we either get the stores to pull the IPv4-only stuff off =
their shelves or educate consumers, the continued deployment of =
additional incapable equipment will be a continuing problem. As bad as =
the situation is for cablemodems and residential gateways, at least =
there, an educated consumer can make a good choice. Now, consider DVRs, =
BluRay players, Receiver/Amplifiers, Televisions, etc. where there are, =
currently, no IPv6 capable choices available to the best of my =
knowledge.

Owen

IPv6 is out there but you only seem get it in the quad radio boxes
along with the corresponding price tag.

We are already seeing reports of consumers complaining because they
can't get a unshared IPv4 address when they move providers from DSL
to Fibre and it breaks what they were doing on the DSL line. In
this case it was DS-Lite providing the shared address but CGN or
NAT64+DNS64 would also be a problem. The NAS box was no longer
reachable because the other side was IPv4 only.

I suspect this is the start of a long line of complaints because ISP's
have been too slow in delivering IPv6 to *everyone* so that people are
isolated from each other protocol wise.

Note it is not like you have not been told for years that this day
is coming.

Mark

26

I think this thread exemplifies a problem among the IPv6 early adopters
who like to whine about the rate of adoption: the best of (y)our knowledge
is likely stale, because things are changing constantly. People are fond
of trotting out the same arguments they’ve been making for years about who
is at fault for IPv6’s weak adoption without actually verifying that the
issue still exists or is as bad as last time they looked i.e. ISP
deployment levels, level of support in equipment, etc. Not saying that all
the problems are solved, or that they didn’t contribute to the issue in
the past, but the “guy walks into a big box store” tale of woe might be a
bit exaggerated now.
The problem now is that because IPv6 isn’t a feature most customers ask
for, a product’s support for it (or lack thereof) is not consistently
published in the vendor specs.

For example: in ~September 2013 I was pleasantly surprised to find (via
some colleagues observing it in the UI) that a number of current Sony TVs
and BluRay players do in fact support IPv6, but at the time, it wasn’t
listed as a feature on their model info on the site. Haven’t checked to
see if it’s there now.
@sonysupportusa on twitter has been helpful when asked questions about
specific models’ IPv6 support, but as I told them, there’s really no
substitute for having the info on the site. It’s not complete *cough* PS4
*cough* but they’re getting there.
Similarly, Belkin’s home routers appear to support IPv6, but that doesn’t
appear in the specs or features list on their site when I just checked it.

I support a recommendation to consumer retailers to start requiring IPv6
support in the stuff that they sell, but unfortunately I don’t have very
good data on how large of a request that actually is.

Wes George

Anything below this line has been added by my company’s mail server, I
have no control over it.

27

There's also an issue of what "IPv6 support" actually means. A few years
ago it meant "has IPv6 printed on the box" :slight_smile: Now it means - what?

For wireless or IPv4 support in such devices, the whole side of the box
is covered with RFC numbers and protocol names (or the marketing names
thereof). Even RIP gets a mention! But on the matter of what exactly the
IPv6 support is, the box is often silent or very terse. Which makes
buying a home device for use in an IPv6 environment very tricky -
essentially you have to either spend hours researching, or you have to
make sure the store will accept the product back if it doesn't work as
you need it to. Someone who knows exactly what they are talking about
can ask e.g., "does it support DHCPv6-PD?", but that's effectively
impossible for most people - they can't articulate the actual features
needed, they just want it to "just work".

Sigh, one of many barriers still to fall...

Regards, K.

28

Any Canadian ISP folk in here want to shine a light on this dearth of
residential IPv6 connectivity?

Is there any progress being made on this front?

29

There are several obstacles to overcome, IMHO
1. The companies at the mid size and smaller levels have to invest in newer
equipment that handles IPV6.
2. The network Admins at the above mentioned companies need to learn IPV6,
most will want there company to pay the bill for this.
3. The vendors that make said equipment should lower the cost of said
equipment to prompt said companies into purchasing said equipment.

There is a huge difference between IPV4 and IPV6 and there will be a lot of
network admins that simply do not want to learn or change there network.

Thank You

Edward Arthurs
Manager of Network Installations
Legacy Inmate Communications
Legacy Contact Center
Legacy Long Distance Intl. Inc
10833 Valley View Street
Suite 150
Cypress, California 90630-5040
Office 1-800-577-5534 ext. 207
Direct 1-800-956-1595
Fax 1-714-827-7545
E-Mail: earthurs@legacyinmate.com
E-Mail: legacyinstall@gmail.com

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30

Perhaps the folk at Sony and Belkin "think" IPv6 is
mainstream and not worth making a big fuss over :-).

Mark.

31

ICANN != a good sampling of number resource issues or concerns.

As you noticed, the whole mess with domain names and their IP issues
is the monetary tail that wags the ICANN dog. ICANN barely pays attention
to number resources and when they do, it’s primarily to do whatever has
been agreed upon by the policy processes in the various RIRs.

This is actually a good thing and we should seek to preserve this fact
after ICANN loses its “adult supervision”.

Owen

32

Now, consider DVRs, BluRay players, Receiver/Amplifiers, Televisions,
etc. where there are, currently, no IPv6 capable choices available to
the best of my knowledge.

I think this thread exemplifies a problem among the IPv6 early adopters
who like to whine about the rate of adoption: the best of (y)our knowledge
is likely stale, because things are changing constantly. People are fond
of trotting out the same arguments they’ve been making for years about who
is at fault for IPv6’s weak adoption without actually verifying that the
issue still exists or is as bad as last time they looked i.e. ISP
deployment levels, level of support in equipment, etc. Not saying that all
the problems are solved, or that they didn’t contribute to the issue in
the past, but the “guy walks into a big box store” tale of woe might be a
bit exaggerated now.

I actually tend to pay pretty close attention to the current state of these things.

Do you know of any of the above devices that are IPv6 capable? Nobody anywhere
earlier in the thread has offered one. Note I left gaming consoles out of the picture
because there is now one on the market which does support IPv6 and another which
I believe is likely to support it reasonably soon.

So while your argument has some legitimacy and I’ve seen many people do it,
I don’t think it quite applies to my statement.

The problem now is that because IPv6 isn’t a feature most customers ask
for, a product’s support for it (or lack thereof) is not consistently
published in the vendor specs.

Sure, but that argument seems to support my idea that consumer education is
now necessary.

For example: in ~September 2013 I was pleasantly surprised to find (via
some colleagues observing it in the UI) that a number of current Sony TVs
and BluRay players do in fact support IPv6, but at the time, it wasn’t
listed as a feature on their model info on the site. Haven’t checked to
see if it’s there now.

Interesting… I will look into that. FWIW, my conversations with Sony presages
support over their 800 number in December had them telling me that there
were no Sony products that supported IPv6 at this time, but that they were
considering putting it on their road map.

I will admit that I am lazy enough that once a vendor tells me they don’t support
something, I don’t dig too much deeper to try and prove them wrong.

@sonysupportusa on twitter has been helpful when asked questions about
specific models’ IPv6 support, but as I told them, there’s really no
substitute for having the info on the site. It’s not complete *cough* PS4
*cough* but they’re getting there.
Similarly, Belkin’s home routers appear to support IPv6, but that doesn’t
appear in the specs or features list on their site when I just checked it.

Yes, many of the home gateways are starting to have undocumented IPv6 support
and that situation is rapidly improving. Notice I also did not mention home
gateways as a “no vendor support” issue.

I support a recommendation to consumer retailers to start requiring IPv6
support in the stuff that they sell, but unfortunately I don’t have very
good data on how large of a request that actually is.

In my experience, retailers will sell whatever flies off the shelves without
regard to whether it’s good for the consumer or not. As such, I believe it’s
more of a consumer education issue if we want to effect real change in behavior
at this point.

Owen

33

Check that one again.

Surprised you didn't mention www.bing.com.

Lee

34

I support a recommendation to consumer retailers to start requiring IPv6
support in the stuff that they sell, but unfortunately I don¹t have very
good data on how large of a request that actually is.

In my experience, retailers will sell whatever flies off the shelves
without
regard to whether it¹s good for the consumer or not. As such, I believe
it¹s
more of a consumer education issue if we want to effect real change in
behavior
at this point.

What would you tell consumers?

Lee

35

For gateways, the IPv6 CE Router is the spec to seek.
For other electronics, the CEA is working on a spec, keep an eye out.

Lee

36

Doesn't surprise me at all. Another thing I've seen lately is number of software (especially system management software) after being certified/tested with IPv6 no longer function when IPv6 is enabled. At least one vendor that broke IPv6 with a recent patch told me they only tested it once for IPv6 compatibility to get the marketing folks off their neck. After that, they no longer test with IPv6 since they don't have IPv6 internally.

37

For consumers I think I would phrase it more as the "next generation
internet" and you need IPv6 in order to be able to connect to it and that
eventually some sites you want to connect to may not be accessible over the
current internet. Something like that.

I am going to be real interested to see how the media handles the situation
when ARIN runs out of IPv4 addresses. I could really see some big doom
and gloom stories hit some of the mainstream media when that occurs. While
it isn't the end of the world when ARIN runs out, it is still significant
and I personally think that moment is going to be what starts to spur more
CIOs to start asking questions about IPv6 and if their organization is
ready (and the answer likely being no)

38

IPv4 doom and gloom is just more irresponsible/un-informed journalism.

ARIN getting close to running out of IPv4 addresses is not news. That this would eventually happen has been known for a very long time. Entities choosing to keep their heads in the sand and ignore that fact is another matter altogether.

Were there (m)any "OMG WE'RE OUT OF IP ADDRESSES!!!1!111" articles when APNIC throttled final assignments down to one /22 per organization after they dipped into their last /8? Were there (m)any when RIPE got down to their last /8

jms

39

For that matter, how about on the other side of the equation. Why is it that certain large networks operating data centres in Canada do not provide IPv6 to all of said data centres? (I'm looking at you, AS701.)

40

Short of consumer education, how do you expect to resolve the issue where $CONSUMER walks into $BIG_BOX_CE_STORE
and says "I need a router, what's the cheapest one you have?"

By making the answer "the cheapest is this FooTronics, but you're
better off with this MegaBar. The FooTronics doesn't do IPv6 so it
can't do X."

Until there is an X that consumers care about, don't hold your breath.

I can tell you from experience that the only practical effect of IPv6
on my home cable service is to make things periodically slow and flaky
when T-W's internal routing flakes. Wahoo. I only leave it turned on
because I know people at T-W who are using the problem reports to
debug it.

R's,
John