It's not the initial assignment fee that's really an impediment, it's
moving from a model where the address space is free (or nearly so) to
a model where you're paying a significant annual fee for the space.
We'd be doing IPv6 here if not for the annual fee. As it stands, there
isn't that much reason to do IPv6, and a significant disincentive in the
form of the fees.
... JG
Yo Joe!
And when there are no eyeballs to look at your IPv4 content because your
average comcast user is on IPv6?
Will you have an incentive then?
William
And when there are no eyeballs to look at your IPv4 content because your
average comcast user is on IPv6?Will you have an incentive then?
As long as Comcast or $EYEBALL_NET provides some sort of IPv6->IPv4, no.
Yah, thats what we are thinking here. We'll probably stick with IP4 only.
Sounds like ARIN has set a trap, so that virtually any contact with them
will result in the ceding of legacy rights.
We'll be sure to avoid any such contact.
Thanks everyone for the info.
John
Just curious: why not set up a separate entity to apply for IPv6 space?
Do you get a cheaper fee (or other brownie points) if you already have
an allocation?
John Palmer (NANOG Acct) wrote (on Wed, Apr 07, 2010 at 03:59:30PM -0500):
If you are an end-user type organization, the fee is only $100/year
for all your resources, IPv4 and IPv6 included. Is that really what
you would call significant?
Owen
Yo Owen!
If you are an end-user type organization, the fee is only $100/year
for all your resources, IPv4 and IPv6 included. Is that really what
you would call significant?
As always, the devil is in the deetails.
"The annual fee will be $100 USD until 2013, at which time ARIN's Board
of Trustees may choose to raise the fee."
Then scroll down to the fees you can expect in 2013. Especially note
how the small guys get hit much harder per IP.
RGDS
GARY
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97701
gem@rellim.com Tel:+1(541)382-8588
The small guys pay: $0.000074505805969 per /64. ($1250 / (2^(64-40))
The big guys pay: $0.000000008185452 per /64. ($36000 / (2^(64-22))
The small guys are still paying less than 1/100th of a penny per /64. Assuming
your salary plus overhead is $40/hour, each *second* of your time is worth
more than the cost of 150 /64s.
Oh, the inhumanity.
The chances of this actually occurring in our lifetime are so small as to be meaningless. There are (according to published reports) between 1 and 2 billion people reachable on IPv4. No rational commercial Internet organization is going to block themselves off from that customer base. Folks like Comcast will probably add IPv6 support _in addition to_ IPv4. Eventually, they may even add a surcharge to encourage people to migrate off IPv4, but I'd imagine that's way down the line. By way of analogy, how long did pulse dialing continue to be supported in the phone system after DTMF was introduced?
Regards,
-drc
We'd be doing IPv6 here if not for the annual fee. As it stands, there
isn't that much reason to do IPv6, and a significant disincentive in the
form of the fees.
No you wouldn't. You'd hit the next impediment where the presence of
IPv6 on your LAN destabilizes your "Internet connection" by causing
all your software to try IPv6 first even though the IPv6 network
hasn't reached the level of stability present in the IPv4 network. And
then you'd stop and (rightly) complain about that problem too.
I could handle 'like everyone else', but have you noticed the HUGE
per IP disparity between large and small block sizes?
How many zeros would you like at the end of your address count? The
smallest ARIN IPv6 assignment has nearly 300 trillion more IP
addresses than the whole IPv4 Internet.
As always, the devil is in the deetails.
From: https://www.arin.net/fees/fee_schedule.html#waivers
"The annual fee will be $100 USD until 2013, at which time ARIN's Board
of Trustees may choose to raise the fee."Then scroll down to the fees you can expect in 2013. Especially note
how the small guys get hit much harder per IP.
You've misread the insider terminology. Here's a brief lesson in ARIN-speak:
allocation - addresses provided to ISPs which ISPs then "reassign" to
customers. These cost a lot per year. Partial waivers apply until
2013.
assignment - addresses provided to end-users. These cost a lot up
front, but then the organization as a whole only pays an annual
maintenance fee of $100 per year total. No waivers apply.
From: Gary E. Miller [mailto:gem@rellim.com]
From: https://www.arin.net/fees/fee_schedule.html#waivers"The annual fee will be $100 USD until 2013, at which time ARIN's Board
of Trustees may choose to raise the fee."
Right. That's for legacy space. The Board was trying to show that
the fees will be stable, without saying they'd never rise. In fact, if you
read the Legacy RSA itself, it says fee increases are limited to:
(1) the amount charged non-Legacy holders for this maintenance
service; and (2) no increase per year greater than $25.
You can find it through https://www.arin.net/resources/legacy/
along with a FAQ explaining why you might consider it. You can
contact ARIN to discuss it, if you have questions (see FAQ #11).
By the way, we extended the availability of the Legacy RSA through
June 30, 2010.
Also, the fee is waived if you pay other fees to ARIN, or if you
return some address space. See the URL.
Then scroll down to the fees you can expect in 2013.
You're talking now about a new IPv6 allocation, not your legacy
space, right? I covered legacy fees above.
Especially note
how the small guys get hit much harder per IP.
Do you mean the $2250 for a /32, or the $1250 for a /48?
Compare the relative costs to ARIN; ARIN's fees aren't set
per IP address.
Disclaimer: I'm on the ARIN Board, but I sometimes make mistakes.
I summarize, but the official word comes from the documents and the
staff.
Lee
Now I may be talking crazy...
IIRC, all of IPv4 space maps to a section of IPv6 space.
<mad hat on>
If one has legacy IPv4 space, but actually talks IPv6 couldn't one announce a prefix much longer than a /64 to map them onto the IPv6 universe (assuming people would allow such craziness... perhaps on their IPv4 speaking routers) and originate/terminate traffic as normal?
</mad hat off>
Isn't this all left to the networks to enforce, as usual, but unlike the status quo, these are all valid allocations...
Technical note: I know this breaks lots of IPv6 goodness (no need to enumerate it here).
DJ
I kind of thought that was something that had already been worked out.
Thats what I get for not paying close enough attention.
Joe Greco wrote:
It's not the initial assignment fee that's really an impediment, it's
moving from a model where the address space is free (or nearly so) to
a model where you're paying a significant annual fee for the space.We'd be doing IPv6 here if not for the annual fee. As it stands, there
isn't that much reason to do IPv6, and a significant disincentive in the
form of the fees.... JG
I have to agree ... why such high charges when a similar service like
GoDaddy provides (domain name registrar) is $15 a year?
Is it REALLY X times the level of difficulty of registering a domain
name, and thus the charges are justified? I will let someone who is
very technical explain this to me.
Cordially
Patrick
That talks about the LRSA fee. Everything below that, however, refers to ISP fees,
not to end user fees.
There is no speculation on that page as to what LRSA fees will be after 2013, and,
there is nothing indicating that we should expect a significant change in end-user
fees for LRSA or RSA.
I know this is subtle, but:
ALLOCATION == ISP
ASSIGNMENT == End User
Assignments are not charged subscriber renewal fees. They are charged an
annual maintenance fee.
Owen
APNIC has a calculator for the fees for the space. you pay max(IPv4 space fee, IPv6 space fee). So basically you don't pay anything to dual stack your current network.
Also, if you are current standing member, they don't even ask you to justify IPv6, they give you a similar space to your current IPv4 space on simple request. If you need more then you need to justify.
Actually, I suspect that once orgs. like Comcast have IPv6 fully deployed you will very likely see increasing fees for "Legacy IPv4 Support" from those providers. Once that happens, there will be eye-ball consumer pressure for content providers to be available on IPv6 or lose business.
Pulse dialing is still supported in most PSTN switches. How often do you think it is still used?
Frankly, the biggest reason Pulse dialing wasn't deprecated faster was the number of Telcos that charged extra for DTMF support for so long. Once the DTMF surcharges were removed, most users converted almost over night.
Owen
Patrick Giagnocavo wrote:
Joe Greco wrote:
It's not the initial assignment fee that's really an impediment, it's
moving from a model where the address space is free (or nearly so) to
a model where you're paying a significant annual fee for the space.We'd be doing IPv6 here if not for the annual fee. As it stands, there
isn't that much reason to do IPv6, and a significant disincentive in the
form of the fees.... JG
I have to agree ... why such high charges when a similar service like
GoDaddy provides (domain name registrar) is $15 a year?Is it REALLY X times the level of difficulty of registering a domain
name, and thus the charges are justified? I will let someone who is
very technical explain this to me.Cordially
Patrick
There are 117,351,239 domain names registered. If I had to guess, there are less than 1% of that total number in IP assignments (not allocations), but I don't have the patience to go compile those statistics. GoDaddy exists based on volume, which we don't have the same scale with IP assignments.
-Dave
And when there are no eyeballs to look at your IPv4 content because your
average comcast user is on IPv6?
we should live so long
randy