In article <1100507318.997532919@[192.168.0.2]>,
Which brings me to another point that's been eating at me since maps
went
commercial... DUL seemed like more of a community effort than RBL or
RSS.
Many entries were added by people volunteering their own information
with
the idea that it was for the "common good". I for one, feel shafted
that
this list to which I contributed, is only available if I choose to pay
a
sizable amount of money.
This feel a bit like CDDB a while back. This is an unfortunate risk that
we take when we do things out of a sense of responsibility. There are
always people out there willing to repackage others work and sell it as
their own. Things like the DUL and CDDB were not started as a 'gimme a
bootstrap so I can go and make some cash' but someone decided that
exactly that would be a great idea.
Ce la vie.
Peter
Remember how much shit ARIN got here when it was first announced
that they'd be charging for IP addresses? That thread was much
worse than the recent MAPS hubbub -- probably because MAPS has
big, scary, easy-to-understand money holes like "legal fees,"
while all ARIN's got is "operating expenses."
Apparently, the legal fees have escalated as a number of injured parties
have filed suit against MAPS and the courts found some merit in their
complaints. Making a living at disrupting other providers' communications
is bound to lead to that kind of reaction. Unfortunately, only well
heeled companies can afford to protect their rights in federal court.
Let's face it JD, this is a high stakes game, and the winner stands to
collect the entire jackpot. They'll either get the court blessed right
to be your Big Brother over all your communications and get the monopoly
to censor, or they'll risk going under. This was clearly outlined in the
MAPS battle plan that desires a legal confrontation to make case law.
In other words, they purposely sought out to incur those "big, scary
money holes like legal fees". They got their wish.
Should just one of the 3 plaintiffs win...
--Mitch
NetSide
Let's face it JD, this is a high stakes game, and the winner stands to
collect the entire jackpot. They'll either get the court blessed right
to be your Big Brother over all your communications and get the monopoly
to censor, or they'll risk going under. This was clearly outlined in the
MAPS battle plan that desires a legal confrontation to make case law.
In other words, they purposely sought out to incur those "big, scary
money holes like legal fees". They got their wish.
you could be right. i guess it's time i sent them another donation.
randy
Save it: the people MAPS has harmed neet it more.
you could be right. i guess it's time i sent them another donation.
Save it: the people MAPS has harmed neet it more.
support low-life, slimeball, spammers? ROFL!
randy
No, I'm not talking about the spammers who were caught in maps, I'm
referring to the INNOCENTS who were caught in MAPS. If the LEO community
acted like MAPS does, there would have been armed revolution in the
streets *years ago*.
MAPS never gave a shit about facts, they cared only about their agenda -
no matter who got hurt in the way.
Fuckem. Vixie is a netnazi who would do us all a favor if he just blew
what little brains he has left out of his left ear.
I think you are confused and talking about ORBS. the MAPS people
have not acted with any agenda that I've ever seen.
I'm not saying that I agree with all the things that MAPS
or Vixie has done during their lifetimes but I think they provide
a valuable service. With the orbs, maps changes recently i've seen
the volume of spam increase by several orders of magnitude.
I wish there was a clean way to filter it out.
- Jared
From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of
measl@mfn.org
Sent: August 14, 2001 12:10 AM
To: Randy Bush
Cc: Mitch Halmu; nanog@merit.edu
Subject: Re: Affects of the balkanization of mail blacklisting> >> you could be right. i guess it's time i sent them another donation.
> > Save it: the people MAPS has harmed neet it more.
>
> support low-life, slimeball, spammers? ROFL!No, I'm not talking about the spammers who were caught in maps, I'm
referring to the INNOCENTS who were caught in MAPS. If the LEO community
acted like MAPS does, there would have been armed revolution in the
streets *years ago*.
The INNOCENTS caught in MAPS were usually affiliated with someone guilty in
some way in another; eg would Mitch's customers be considered innocent
victims of MAPS, even though their victimness is directly due to their
decision to do business with someone who is guilty?
MAPS never gave a shit about facts, they cared only about their agenda -
no matter who got hurt in the way.
Funny, I could say the same about you:
"You never gave a s**t about facts, you cared only about your agenda -
no matter who got spammed in the way".
Fuckem. Vixie is a netnazi who would do us all a favor if he just blew
what little brains he has left out of his left ear.
Vixie's done a lot of things other than MAPS that have done a lot of good;
BIND, anyone? I'm sure there are a bunch of others but exposure to such
stupidity as your post has caused my mind to go blank.
BTW, if I replaced "Vixie" with "You and Mitch" in that sentence, I think it
might reflect the opinion of "us all" a bit better, because lots of us don't
seem to mind his existence.
Vivien
> No, I'm not talking about the spammers who were caught in maps, I'm
> referring to the INNOCENTS who were caught in MAPS. If the LEO community
> acted like MAPS does, there would have been armed revolution in the
> streets *years ago*.
>
> MAPS never gave a shit about facts, they cared only about their agenda -
> no matter who got hurt in the way.
>
> Fuckem. Vixie is a netnazi who would do us all a favor if he just blew
> what little brains he has left out of his left ear.I think you are confused and talking about ORBS. the MAPS people
have not acted with any agenda that I've ever seen.
I assure you I am not confused. ORBS was intolerably worse, but MAPS is
still not something I am looking forward to seeing survive.
I'm not saying that I agree with all the things that MAPS
or Vixie has done during their lifetimes but I think they provide
a valuable service.
Then of course, you are free to subscribe.
With the orbs, maps changes recently i've seen
the volume of spam increase by several orders of magnitude.
Agreed.
I wish there was a clean way to filter it out.
There are plenty, but most of us are too goddamn lazy to do it ourselves,
and ask for an ORBS or MAPS like service to do it for us. We have NEVER
had a spam problem (we've been here since 1994) going out - not a single
incident (not that we probably won't haqve one *someday*, but still, it's
a hell of a good track record).
The SPAM problem goes up and down to be sure, but you know what? PROCMAIL
is your friend. All you need to look for are the basics (ADV, Make Money,
etc) and you can instatly filter 90 percent of this trash into the
bitbucket.
At work (not mfn.org), I get several orders of magnitude more mail
(usually obnoxious at that) from the "gentle anti-spammers" than the poor
"victims" get themselves!
Lets get my position straight: I think spam is annoying as heel, and
should not be done. I don't think that SPAM is going to cause any major
social upheavals. I also disagree that all people want to be spared from
SPAM, and with thaqt in mind, I believe everyone should defend themselves
to the best of their interest, and leave the next guy alone: he or she
probably has *way* more important things to worry about.
MAPS doesn't harm people. People harm people. This is just like the guns
argument. Guns don't kill. People kill. MAPS doesn't force themselves
on anyone...and having one (or a few) centralized blacklists with
informative web sites and clear policies is certainly better than the
alternative (every ISP with their own blacklist, nobody having a clue how
or the time to get off them all).
Why on earth does this maudlin disestablishmentarian nonsense inevitably
come up around MAPS? People have a RIGHT to do with THEIR NETWORKS what
THEY WANT TO. Anyone who says that I have to spend money on bandwidth
and equipment for spam just because they can't police an AUP on THEIR
NETWORK doesn't deserve to be in business.
> Fuckem. Vixie is a netnazi who would do us all a favor if he just
blew
> what little brains he has left out of his left ear.
Paul Vixie has contributed far more to the Internet as a whole and the
community of his peers than you ever will, little man. Your cursory
dismissal underscores your dilettantism.
The SPAM problem goes up and down to be sure, but you know what?
PROCMAIL
is your friend. All you need to look for are the basics (ADV, Make
Money,
etc) and you can instatly filter 90 percent of this trash into the
bitbucket.
That is such a cop out. That is like saying, "Well you know, pollution
is bad but if you wear this smog filter you only ingest 10 percent of
the noxious waste." If network administrators at ALL service providers
did their job properly, you wouldn't have to filter at all. This is
just the same as having proper RFC 1918 egress filters; it is only being
a responsible member of the provider community and preventing grief for
the next guy. There is a major difference between freedom and license
that you don't seem to understand.
Regards,
Geoff Zinderdine
CCNP MCP CCA SOB
I find this all highly amusing.
Fuckem. Vixie is a netnazi who would do us all a favor if he just blew
what little brains he has left out of his left ear.
You say this but...
If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings,
You certainly aren't behaving very civilized. My my my, where are your
manners?
Please take your agenda to an on-topic mailing list. Posting your agenda to
NANOG just *bores* the rest of us. I'd rather have some interesting signal
for once, instead of all the frivolous and puerile sophistry you and your
anti-MAPS clique create.
Rachel
> > >> you could be right. i guess it's time i sent them another donation.
> > > Save it: the people MAPS has harmed neet it more.
> >
> > support low-life, slimeball, spammers? ROFL!
>
> No, I'm not talking about the spammers who were caught in maps, I'm
> referring to the INNOCENTS who were caught in MAPS. If the LEO community
> acted like MAPS does, there would have been armed revolution in the
> streets *years ago*.The INNOCENTS caught in MAPS were usually affiliated with someone guilty in
some way in another; eg would Mitch's customers be considered innocent
victims of MAPS, even though their victimness is directly due to their
decision to do business with someone who is guilty?
Guilty of what, Vivien? You are accusing me of being a spammer? NetSide's
customers were fully informed of our stance published on a web site
dedicated to the problem, most agreed, and those that chose to stay and
endure the year-long MAPS blockade obviously like their communications
uncensored, and truly appreciate being able to transparently use their
accounts from elsewhere (i.e., from the office).
> MAPS never gave a shit about facts, they cared only about their agenda -
> no matter who got hurt in the way.Funny, I could say the same about you:
"You never gave a s**t about facts, you cared only about your agenda -
no matter who got spammed in the way".
The "collateral damage" they inflicted is simply unacceptable. The MAPS
"agenda" came fully into the limelight with the fees they now ask for
the "service". I dare to be as bold as to imply that their agenda is akin
to extracting "protection" money from ISPs. Do you really expect them to
blackhole some of their paying "customers"?
> Fuckem. Vixie is a netnazi who would do us all a favor if he just blew
> what little brains he has left out of his left ear.Vixie's done a lot of things other than MAPS that have done a lot of good;
BIND, anyone? I'm sure there are a bunch of others but exposure to such
stupidity as your post has caused my mind to go blank.
So Der Fuehrer constructed the German autobahn, Il Duce made the Italian
trains roll on time, etc. Are they good people? While I don't even question
Vixie's great contributions such as BIND, I am fighting his little MAPS
charity based strictly on the belief that no private party has the right
to appoint themselves as communications censors. That role, if it ever
comes to it, can only be filled by laws and a government mandate.
BTW, if I replaced "Vixie" with "You and Mitch" in that sentence, I think it
might reflect the opinion of "us all" a bit better, because lots of us don't
seem to mind his existence.Vivien
What can I say? We all have our idols and foes. Being objective and
impartial about their actions, and having the courage to point at
your friend's errors, or dare to disagree with something viewed as
"politically correct" in some circles is a different story. It certainly
wont't win you any popularity contests...
--Mitch
NetSide
But you have yet to ever tell anyone how, exactly, MAPS does any
censoring. They provide(d?) a list of IP addresses. That is _all_ they
have ever done. I cannot go up to Vixie or MAPS and say "filter my mail
for me", nor have I ever (that I'm aware of) been able to do so. MAPS
does NOT censor anything. Period. They provide a set of information,
which ISPs make a (presumably informed) decision to do filtering (or
censorship, if you want to call it that) based on. That is a business
decision for those ISPs to make, a right which I'm pretty sure I recall
you defending at some point in one of the monthly MAPS/ORBS/whoever is
evil flamewars.
You dance around the real facts in this matter _every single time_ this is
brought up. Please explain to me, exactly how MAPS censors anything.
I'll look forward to your reply. And don't tell me MAPS filtering is
enabled by default in Sendmail, or point me to your propaganda page -
the first one isn't true, and I've read the second before - it doesn't
answer my question.
And if you can't come up with an explanation, can we please end this
monthly flamewar early and keep me from having to add some more rules to
my .procmailrc?
Tim
you have yet to ever tell anyone how, exactly, MAPS does any censoring.
"Hi, welcome to NANOG. Please don't feed the trolls."
--Jeff
From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of
Mitch Halmu
Sent: August 14, 2001 1:24 AM
To: Vivien M.
Cc: nanog@merit.edu
Subject: RE: Affects of the balkanization of mail blacklisting> The INNOCENTS caught in MAPS were usually affiliated with
someone guilty in
> some way in another; eg would Mitch's customers be considered innocent
> victims of MAPS, even though their victimness is directly due to their
> decision to do business with someone who is guilty?Guilty of what, Vivien? You are accusing me of being a spammer? NetSide's
customers were fully informed of our stance published on a web site
dedicated to the problem, most agreed, and those that chose to stay and
endure the year-long MAPS blockade obviously like their communications
uncensored, and truly appreciate being able to transparently use their
accounts from elsewhere (i.e., from the office).
MAPS accused you of operating an open relay.
You posted to NANOG saying you proudly operate an open relay.
That, ladies and gentlemen, is pretty much the textbook definition of an
open and shut case. (In my book, that makes you guilty of operating an open
relay.)
Tell me, if you hate MAPS so much, why haven't you sued them for
slander/libel? Is it perhaps because your lawyers told you that MAPS'
accusations are TRUE and you'd get yourself laughed out of court?
> Funny, I could say the same about you:
> "You never gave a s**t about facts, you cared only about your agenda -
> no matter who got spammed in the way".The "collateral damage" they inflicted is simply unacceptable. The MAPS
They inflicted no damage.
Example: your local $ILEC has some Yellow Pages, where you are listed as an
ISP. Some bad thiefs want to steal a T1 router or a Sparc 5, and figure an
ISP would be a good place to get this equipment. They see your listing,
break into your facility, and steal your hardware.
Do you sue $ILEC for having set you up for being robbed?
Now, MAPS publishes a listing of people who operate an open relay. You admit
running an open relay. Someone else uses that listing to refuse mail from
you.
Why is MAPS in that second example more evil than $ILEC in the first one?
Both provided a listing. You suffered damage in both cases because a THIRD
PARTY used this listing to cause damage to you. How is the provider of the
second listing more to blame?
"agenda" came fully into the limelight with the fees they now ask for
the "service". I dare to be as bold as to imply that their agenda is akin
I don't blame them for charging; being in the business of operating a
mostly-free service, I have found that people are very hesitant to open
their wallet unless they're forced to... when, quite often, a decent amount
of wallets are likely to snap open, while the others of the remaining
wallets scream "bait and switch". Coincidence? Perhaps it's human nature.
(Note: before I get flamed, we haven't pulled that kind of thing on our
users - we're too much a bunch of nice naive guys)
> Vixie's done a lot of things other than MAPS that have done a
lot of good;
> BIND, anyone? I'm sure there are a bunch of others but exposure to such
> stupidity as your post has caused my mind to go blank.So Der Fuehrer constructed the German autobahn, Il Duce made the Italian
trains roll on time, etc. Are they good people? While I don't
I'll leave that to the historians to judge. Last time I checked, this wasn't
NAHRG - North American History Research Group.
even question
Vixie's great contributions such as BIND, I am fighting his little MAPS
charity based strictly on the belief that no private party has the right
to appoint themselves as communications censors. That role, if it ever
comes to it, can only be filled by laws and a government mandate.
Censors?
How has MAPS interfered in ANY way with your mail? Let's say I use MAPS (I
don't, FYI... we don't have a need for it). You send mail to me. Based on MY
decision to have my server trust MAPS' judgment, my server tells your mail
to go screw itself. What did MAPS do other than ADVISE me to reject your
mail? If I didn't TRUST MAPS' judgment, then I wouldn't use it.
That, my friend, is the difference between MAPS and your government censors
you seem to WANT. If you have government censors saying "Good ol' Mitch is
bad", then it will be the LAW forcing everybody to block you, and you are
totally gone. If you have MAPS blacklisting you, then it is ONLY the people
who have chosen to TRUST (and pay, nowadays) MAPS that are rejecting your
mail. If I were you, I'd prefer the second alternative... at least for your
customers' sake.
Vivien
The SPAM problem goes up and down to be sure, but you know what?
PROCMAIL is your friend. All you need to look for are the basics
(ADV, Make Money, etc) and you can instatly filter 90 percent of
this trash into the bitbucket.
Please do share your operational experiences with this, with respect
to effectiveness, scalability, etc. Sounds like a shocking revelation
-- who needs elaborate DNS or eBGP multihop-based blackhole lists,
when we can catch 90% of all spam known to man using procmail and a
simple subject regex!@?!
At work (not mfn.org), I get several orders of magnitude more mail
(usually obnoxious at that) from the "gentle anti-spammers" than the
poor "victims" get themselves!
Have you tried unsubscribing yourself from the cypherpunks and spam-l
lists?
Guilty of what, Vivien? You are accusing me of being a spammer?
While you're not a spammer, you're consciously providing spammers with
an invaluable tool: an open SMTP relay to abuse freely.
NetSide's customers were fully informed of our stance published on a
web site dedicated to the problem, most agreed, and those that chose
to stay and endure the year-long MAPS blockade obviously like their
communications uncensored, and truly appreciate being able to
transparently use their accounts from elsewhere (i.e., from the
office).
Ahhh yes, <http://www.dotcomeon.com/> isn't the least bit biased or
factually inaccurate, right? And secure tunneling, SMTP
authentication, and IMAP/POP-before-SMTP are hard; let's go shopping.
I dare to be as bold as to imply that their agenda is akin to
extracting "protection" money from ISPs. Do you really expect them
to blackhole some of their paying "customers"?
Yes. MAPS is (and has been for as long as I can recall) a reputable
organization under very close public scrutiny. If they did something
this shady, surely someone would raise a stink.
I am fighting his little MAPS charity based strictly on the belief
that no private party has the right to appoint themselves as
communications censors [...]
So, if you're so opposed to the MAPS-maintained blackholes, what are
you using to protect your massive dialup customer base from spam?
-adam
Godwin.