220v/50hz power rig

Unnamed Administration sources reported that Randy Bush said:

you're gonna love this one.

i have a piece of equipment i will be shipping to china that i want to test
before i ship it over. it has a <gasp!> electric motor! so i need some
kind of transformer/inverter setup that plugs into red blooded american
115v/60hz and can handle

    Power requirement: 1.5 kW
    Voltage requirement: 220 V
    Frequency: 50/60 Hz
    Current requirement: 10 A
    Current protection by user: 16 A (slow blow)
    Protection type: IP 54
    Processor: C167, 20 MHz
    Spindle motor power: AC 380 Watts
    Brake: Electro-dynamic & mechanical

If you want to test it on 50 Hz, you have a real issue. You can
not easily generate that much; there is no easy way to morph 60
into same.

Such will make a real difference in motor speed (duh!) unless
it's really crude (electric drill/hair drier motor w/ brushes)
or exotic (chopper controlled with feedback regulation, etc..)

You might be able to rent/find a 5-10 KW gas generator and slow
it down to make 50; it may or may not still make 220, but that's
a little easier to handle, find a Variac. You want a bigger one
because its efficiency will fall off.

There ARE test sets that generate 50HZ from 60 (actually, 60->DC->50)
but offhand I do not know where you'd find one. Maybe a major exporter
of toys (LockNortGrumMart or such) would have one they use. Or hit
all the equipment rental outfits.

In article <200109052323.TAA05944@sigma.nrk.com>,

Randy,

If you want to test it on 50 Hz, you have a real issue. You can
not easily generate that much; there is no easy way to morph 60
into same.

Some UPS-like equipment will do this - stuff designed for running
computer equipment in a field in the middle of nowhere, normally
for pseudo military use; take any Generator input (which can be 30Hz-70Hz),
any input voltage, normally close to sawtooth or triangle wave and
covered with crap and artefacts, turn it into DC, put it into
a few lead-acid batteries, and then work with the back-end of
a conventional UPS.

I've been trying to think of where I saw this (other than close
to a landrover) without success; I suspect that the easiest place
to find one that produces 220V @ 50Hz will be in Europe. I'm sure
they'll work just fine off 110V @ 60Hz input - they'll think it's
the cleanest and best power source they've yet seen. You might
find a US model with switchable output (both voltage and
frequency).

Many true online UPS's do not much care (i.e. can be configured
not to much care) about input frequency, as they rectify the
supply anyway - in general the reason they look is that
decreasing frequency means your generator is slowing down which
is not a good sign. So failing that, you could try a normal
European on-line UPS, with an input step-up transformer, with
a wide frequency tolerance. The only problem you may run into
is that some boxes are too clever by half, and autosense input
frequency to determine output frequency.

Alex Bligh
Personal Capacity

Depending on how much power you want (joined this thread late)
you could just use a standard inverter and a power pack.

A power pack will produce a 12V or 24V DC source for you and an
inverter designed to supply 220V 50Hz from a car battery can be
made to take it's DC input from that instead.

A quick web search for "inverter" "50Hz" throws up 210V, 220V,
230V and 240V inverters pretty easily. Then you can work out
the power source, car batteries, power pack, DC power rails or
some combination.

(Australia is 240V 50Hz on the east coast, and I think it's still
250V 50Hz on the west coast, it used to be 260V and in some sites
[eg, BankWest tower upper floors on weekends, ie, where the microwave
gear for the academic network is located] I've seen up to 270V.)

David, hoping all his equipment which claims to be 110V-240V supports
       the US voltages and frequencies next week :-))

[straying well from the topic here, but ...]

(Australia is 240V 50Hz on the east coast, and I think it's still
250V 50Hz on the west coast, it used to be 260V and in some sites
[eg, BankWest tower upper floors on weekends, ie, where the microwave
gear for the academic network is located] I've seen up to 270V.)

the tolerance is typically +/- 10%, so it isn't uncommon to see anything between 216-264V and HZ +/- 1%.

the +/- range on voltage is also what makes it 'easier' for power-supply makers (at least if the design isn't dependent on HZ).
this is why you typically see multi-range power-supplies state "115V or 230V".

HZ moving around causes far more problems -- makes peoples clocks go slow and fast. for that reason, HZ is very tightly regulated - if it goes over for a period, they'll make it go under to even it out.

cheers,

lincoln.
NB. that is simply WA power and the fact that it is somewhat hard to regulate supply to demand when you've got an isolated grid.

If you want to test it on 50 Hz, you have a real issue. You can
not easily generate that much; there is no easy way to morph 60
into same.

and boy was he right. (apologies to many for not re-emphasizing the

Some UPS-like equipment will do this - stuff designed for running
computer equipment in a field in the middle of nowhere, normally for
pseudo military use; take any Generator input (which can be 30Hz-70Hz),
any input voltage, normally close to sawtooth or triangle wave and
covered with crap and artefacts, turn it into DC, put it into a few
lead-acid batteries, and then work with the back-end of a conventional
UPS.

yup, that seems to be the general approach. i have leads on a 220/50
ups of this type, and plan to feed it 220/60. but, as you say, feeding
it 110/60 might work.

randy

Sorry for the nit-picking... Grid AC frequency is tightly controlled for
entirely different reason - imagine what happens when you have two
generators on the same grid, out of phase from each other. (In really
large grids, like ex-USSR's United Energy System wave propagation delays
make the whole synchronization dance quite interesting, particularly
considering that turbines start rotating faster if load drops, etc).

There other, as imprtant, reasons to keep frequency stable: for example,
phase difference determines the direction of energy flow in an inter-tie
transmission line! (see, for example, analysis of coupled oscillators in
Feynman's lectures on physics). And there's a whole can of worms in
keeping right the angle between voltage and current :slight_smile:

Actually, a lot of what grid control automatics people do could be a very
well worth to learn for the network people. Grid control requires very
fast redistribution of the load to keep parts of grid in sync; miss the
time window, and you have to live in panic mode, effectively shutting down
and patritioning grid to protect equipment against cascading effects.

That forced automation designers to go into a lot of very heavy trickery,
like pre-computing failure modes, and then quickly selecting the right
scenario. Of course, no in-line signalling foolishness there :slight_smile:

--vadim

g'day,

> HZ moving around causes far more problems -- makes peoples clocks go slow
> and fast. for that reason, HZ is very tightly regulated - if it goes over
> for a period, they'll make it go under to even it out.

Sorry for the nit-picking... Grid AC frequency is tightly controlled for
entirely different reason - imagine what happens when you have two
generators on the same grid, out of phase from each other. (In really
large grids, like ex-USSR's United Energy System wave propagation delays
make the whole synchronization dance quite interesting,

i tend to think of electricity grids in the form of "organised chaos". its really just one big phase-locked-loop setup where the producers are always second-guessing what the consumers want.

in the four power-stations i've worked on the construction of (doing automated power-station controllers), we used automatic-phase-loop balancing that removed the "manual" part out of closing a circuit-breaker of a generator coming online - it'd do it for you, and it'd only do it when it was "in-phase".
the hard part them comes dealing with a "black start" - ie. where there has been a total power failure and there is no phase to sync on to.

i've also had the somewhat dubious honor of getting the automated power-station stuff wrong too. the somewhat dubious honour i can claim is that i caused a blackout of an entire nation. (the Kingdom of Tonga).

its very difficult to physically close a circuit-breaker when its out-of-phase. if you do manage to do it (eg. you have a hydraulic or compressed-air based breaker that DOES have enough force to manage to close it out-of-phase), then obviously "bad things"(tm) happen to that generator.
legend has it (and i don't know if this is true or not) that there is a generator (or, at least the Alternator) in the Swan River in East Perth (Western Australia) that 'jumped'

particularly
considering that turbines start rotating faster if load drops, etc).

that is true of all engines. its always a supply/demand driven system, with the engine typically always operating at a fixed RPM. if supply exceeds demand, the engine spins faster (and HZ goes up). if demand exceeds supply, the engine slow down slightly (and HZ goes down).
the role of the governor is to try to keep a stable frequency while governing the amont of fuel being added to the engine.

There other, as imprtant, reasons to keep frequency stable: for example,
phase difference determines the direction of energy flow in an inter-tie
transmission line! (see, for example, analysis of coupled oscillators in
Feynman's lectures on physics). And there's a whole can of worms in
keeping right the angle between voltage and current :slight_smile:

the kVARs, yes. :slight_smile:

i've was also at one installation where the kVAR balancing was awry between generators in the same power-station. the [electronic] governors were basically 'battling' with each other but never getting in sync with each other. the net-effect there was that we had the HZ so far out (and oscillating) that it was evident by street lightbulbs pulsating. (thankfully, that didn't occur on a power-grid, but at an isolated mine-site).

Actually, a lot of what grid control automatics people do could be a very
well worth to learn for the network people. Grid control requires very
fast redistribution of the load to keep parts of grid in sync; miss the
time window, and you have to live in panic mode, effectively shutting down
and patritioning grid to protect equipment against cascading effects.

power grids typically always have trip-alarms based on all sorts of things -- KVars out of sync, Frequency out of range.
things tend to 'work' providing there is a large enough pool of producers and consumers. its large load-spikes and load-dips that cause things to break.

i still find it incredible that power is as reliable as it is. (i don't live in Califormia, so i can make that statement. :slight_smile: ).

in either case, i think this discussion has probably exceeded its usefulness.

cheers,

lincoln.